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Post by JerryScript on Nov 6, 2015 22:20:56 GMT -5
Hey Everybody, RCQ provided me a link to this thread so I thought I would just stop in and say hi to everyone and say what an awesome thread this is....I've been very busy with work and haven't had much time to visit other forums and don't know how soon I'll check back in, but if anyone has any questions, you can find a link to my forum by clicking on the friends list here at it'stheride... Or, you can send me a personal message on this forum, I will get a notification in my email. In case you haven't realized by my handle, I am Dan Martin, owner of Martin Mopeds LLC, the person who assembled RCQ's engine. This engine was a fun build.... I build a lot GY6's, but Taida's are always the coolest. Good to hear from you Dan, great job on this build! |
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 9, 2015 0:41:48 GMT -5
Hi Dan !
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 9, 2015 0:44:01 GMT -5
U may end up having to use the 15 gram rollers . let us know how it turns out!!
The k&s ran my rpms up unless I used heavier weights .
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 10, 2015 0:20:13 GMT -5
U may end up having to use the 15 gram rollers . let us know how it turns out!! The k&s ran my rpms up unless I used heavier weights . Yeah, trying to figure that out. As you know, George, I had 9gr sliders in the Dr. Pepper variator with the 60mm BBK. But that was with 13/40 gearing, which is a 3.0 ratio, and that with little 10 inch wheels. So now I've got SuperEngine, 16/36 gearing (about a 2.25 ratio) and your K&S variator. Before putting the K&S on - with the Dr. Pepper and before the gear change - I started out with 12 gr sliders but they were too light. So, when I changed gears (still with the Dr. P) I put in 14 gr rollers. They were too heavy -- a lag at takeoff and RPMs never, ever above 6K So this past weekend I put the new clutch in and the K&S, with a new set of Dr. P 12gr sliders. Way better than the last stop - maybe perfect for me - but also maybe not optimized. RPMs get up to 7K but normally are in the 6,500 range. I dunno. Really - I dunno much about variator tuning and do not know if I should keep messing with it. Your thoughts? |
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 10, 2015 1:21:55 GMT -5
U may end up having to use the 15 gram rollers . let us know how it turns out!! The k&s ran my rpms up unless I used heavier weights . Yeah, trying to figure that out. As you know, George, I had 9gr sliders in the Dr. Pepper variator with the 60mm BBK. But that was with 13/40 gearing, which is a 3.0 ratio, and that with little 10 inch wheels. So now I've got SuperEngine, 16/36 gearing (about a 2.25 ratio) and your K&S variator. Before putting the K&S on - with the Dr. Pepper and before the gear change - I started out with 12 gr sliders but they were too light. So, when I changed gears (still with the Dr. P) I put in 14 gr rollers. They were too heavy -- a lag at takeoff and RPMs never, ever above 6K So this past weekend I put the new clutch in and the K&S, with a new set of Dr. P 12gr sliders. Way better than the last stop - maybe perfect for me - but also maybe not optimized. RPMs get up to 7K but normally are in the 6,500 range. I dunno. Really - I dunno much about variator tuning and do not know if I should keep messing with it. Your thoughts? Are you able to break the 7000 rpm range on a straight shot or is 7000 max ? I never tried sliders in the k&s . if 7000 is max on a straight run , I would hold there since your not looking for a speed demon . hat is your mph at 7000 rpm an a straight run ? Did you mark belt climb ? I'd like to know the different from the Dr p and the k&s. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 12, 2015 9:42:34 GMT -5
Yeah, trying to figure that out. As you know, George, I had 9gr sliders in the Dr. Pepper variator with the 60mm BBK. But that was with 13/40 gearing, which is a 3.0 ratio, and that with little 10 inch wheels. So now I've got SuperEngine, 16/36 gearing (about a 2.25 ratio) and your K&S variator. Before putting the K&S on - with the Dr. Pepper and before the gear change - I started out with 12 gr sliders but they were too light. So, when I changed gears (still with the Dr. P) I put in 14 gr rollers. They were too heavy -- a lag at takeoff and RPMs never, ever above 6K So this past weekend I put the new clutch in and the K&S, with a new set of Dr. P 12gr sliders. Way better than the last stop - maybe perfect for me - but also maybe not optimized. RPMs get up to 7K but normally are in the 6,500 range. I dunno. Really - I dunno much about variator tuning and do not know if I should keep messing with it. Your thoughts? Are you able to break the 7000 rpm range on a straight shot or is 7000 max ? I never tried sliders in the k&s . if 7000 is max on a straight run , I would hold there since your not looking for a speed demon . hat is your mph at 7000 rpm an a straight run ? Did you mark belt climb ? I'd like to know the different from the Dr p and the k&s. 7K is about the tops it gets to. Have not yet marked for belt climb, and have not yet tried for highest MPH (afraid, to tell the truth). Finally finished the break in period and will write up what I'm getting in a day or so. But at 7K RPM I can be anywhere from 30mph up to who knows how high. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 16, 2015 15:23:24 GMT -5
OK, so finally after broken engine mounts and rain delays SuperEngine is through it's break-in period and I can provide some feedback for those interested and thinking about a SuperEngine. 1. You will be disappointed here because everyone (including me) evaluates "performance" by top speed, and this engine in this Retro scooter is powerful enough that I'm not very comfortable running the thing at a those kind of speeds. Maybe soon I will, but until now I haven't. Sorry. (Riding this scooter at 80mph was never my goal anyway, so ...) 2. If you don't want to bother reading further: my scooter, with SuperEngine, is damned near P E R F E C T.3. Some feedback on the changes other than the engine: - Gears: The scoot has a much lower final gear set. The OEM gearing was 13/40, or about the highest gearing you can get at 3.1. Now it has 16/36 - very low ratio of about 2.25. SuperEngine has plenty of torque to pull with this low ratio, and no doubt 16/36 or so is better for highest top speed ~~~ but i don't care about that since the scooter's suspension simply isn't safe much above 60 or 65. If I had it to do again I'd probably go up a notch to 16/37 (about a 2.3 ratio) just to move the power curve down a bit .... but it's too close to ideal already and will not bother.
- Clutch: Thanks to GEH the scoot has a full NCY clutch (bell, pulley, pad assembly, 1,500 Contra spring) instead of the OEM setup before. To be honest, I do not see much of a change. The OEM setup had long pads like the NCY; don't know what Contra was in it. And the NCY clutch is a VERY expensive mod. I'd suggest people NOT spend the money unless they really do feel slippage (I didn't).
- Tires: Figured out how to install slightly wider Michelin City Grip tires using a 6mm spacer between the final drive bearing and the wheel, moving the wheel slightly to the right and creating a bit more clearance between the tire and the variator-side of the engine casting. These tires are MUCH better; hopefully will give more mileage too. No noticeable downside to using the spacer.
- Variator: Again, thanks to GEH the scoot is now using a K&S variator instead of the Dr. Pulley one I had in there (which costs twice the price of the K&S). Sorry, but have not yet had time to mess around with weights and tune the variator (using 12gr Dr. P sliders) ... but the K&S, untuned, seems at least as good as the twice-as-expensive Dr. Pulley. Will have more info here when I get to tuning.
4. Performance As I said, this scooter is almost perfect now. It cruises at 70 to 75 ChinaMPH at half throttle or so. That doesn't mean top speed would be a ton higher - it might be I'm using close to the full carburetor at half throttle - don't know how much more remains. But WAY off WOT this thing just floats along, at 6Krpm or so, effortlessly. Oil temp has not once been higher than 175 deg. Where I was before, with the 60mm BBK engine, at WOT to hit 60 or 65, this thing now just flies. I LOVE it. Going up moderate to steep hills the scoot continues to accelerate to 60 or 65 ChinaMPH. Before, on the same hills, it would slow to under 50. It's wonderful! Off the line takeoff is fast but not a rocket sled at first. There seems to be a 1 second or so period of good pickup, after which the scooter suddenly just starts pulling and does not stop until at a scary fast (for this thing) speed. The prior engine, with the ultra-high ratio gears, didn't have this "pause" in takeoff and at times would pop the front wheel up (not safe on this thing). Not happening with the gears I not have and with SuperEngine. However, after 5 seconds or so SuperEngine would have passed (flown by) and would leave the prior engine in the dust. I was always (prior engine) able to keep up with cars off a red light (unless they were racing me) ~~~ now they are far behind. Again ... perfect. So, overall .... for what I'm looking for ... this thing is close to heaven. It's gone from something that, before, would be screaming to keep up with traffic to a scooter that just effortlessly flows, at moderate throttle and plenty of power to spare. Hills are no longer noticed. Of course, it's still a Retro scooter and is crappy at high speeds (especially with the barn door windshield) and for long distances. I use my Goldwing for that. But the Goldwing is a at 900+ pounds, and it' getting almost zero use now a days. SuperEngine wasn't cheap, but my oh my is it great! |
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Post by cyborg on Nov 18, 2015 14:16:29 GMT -5
Great writeup!!! I knew that mill would be really great,,, and I don't blame you for not wanting to " go fast" with the forks especially the way they are from the factory,,,I haven't searched the web but I've only seen one scooter with forks that have a triple tree arrangement and ""motorcycle style" forks ,, I simply don't trust the lower fork clamp only type steering head,,,
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Post by pistonguy on Nov 18, 2015 15:42:24 GMT -5
Everything I would want in a build for sure. Sweet!
Not about doing 80 but The Most Important Part is the In-Between/Ride ability.
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Post by geh3333 on Nov 21, 2015 2:39:41 GMT -5
OK, so finally after broken engine mounts and rain delays SuperEngine is through it's break-in period and I can provide some feedback for those interested and thinking about a SuperEngine. 1. You will be disappointed here because everyone (including me) evaluates "performance" by top speed, and this engine in this Retro scooter is powerful enough that I'm not very comfortable running the thing at a those kind of speeds. Maybe soon I will, but until now I haven't. Sorry. (Riding this scooter at 80mph was never my goal anyway, so ...) 2. If you don't want to bother reading further: my scooter, with SuperEngine, is damned near P E R F E C T.3. Some feedback on the changes other than the engine: - Gears: The scoot has a much lower final gear set. The OEM gearing was 13/40, or about the highest gearing you can get at 3.1. Now it has 16/36 - very low ratio of about 2.25. SuperEngine has plenty of torque to pull with this low ratio, and no doubt 16/36 or so is better for highest top speed ~~~ but i don't care about that since the scooter's suspension simply isn't safe much above 60 or 65. If I had it to do again I'd probably go up a notch to 16/37 (about a 2.3 ratio) just to move the power curve down a bit .... but it's too close to ideal already and will not bother.
- Clutch: Thanks to GEH the scoot has a full NCY clutch (bell, pulley, pad assembly, 1,500 Contra spring) instead of the OEM setup before. To be honest, I do not see much of a change. The OEM setup had long pads like the NCY; don't know what Contra was in it. And the NCY clutch is a VERY expensive mod. I'd suggest people NOT spend the money unless they really do feel slippage (I didn't).
- Tires: Figured out how to install slightly wider Michelin City Grip tires using a 6mm spacer between the final drive bearing and the wheel, moving the wheel slightly to the right and creating a bit more clearance between the tire and the variator-side of the engine casting. These tires are MUCH better; hopefully will give more mileage too. No noticeable downside to using the spacer.
- Variator: Again, thanks to GEH the scoot is now using a K&S variator instead of the Dr. Pulley one I had in there (which costs twice the price of the K&S). Sorry, but have not yet had time to mess around with weights and tune the variator (using 12gr Dr. P sliders) ... but the K&S, untuned, seems at least as good as the twice-as-expensive Dr. Pulley. Will have more info here when I get to tuning.
4. Performance As I said, this scooter is almost perfect now. It cruises at 70 to 75 ChinaMPH at half throttle or so. That doesn't mean top speed would be a ton higher - it might be I'm using close to the full carburetor at half throttle - don't know how much more remains. But WAY off WOT this thing just floats along, at 6Krpm or so, effortlessly. Oil temp has not once been higher than 175 deg. Where I was before, with the 60mm BBK engine, at WOT to hit 60 or 65, this thing now just flies. I LOVE it. Going up moderate to steep hills the scoot continues to accelerate to 60 or 65 ChinaMPH. Before, on the same hills, it would slow to under 50. It's wonderful! Off the line takeoff is fast but not a rocket sled at first. There seems to be a 1 second or so period of good pickup, after which the scooter suddenly just starts pulling and does not stop until at a scary fast (for this thing) speed. The prior engine, with the ultra-high ratio gears, didn't have this "pause" in takeoff and at times would pop the front wheel up (not safe on this thing). Not happening with the gears I not have and with SuperEngine. However, after 5 seconds or so SuperEngine would have passed (flown by) and would leave the prior engine in the dust. I was always (prior engine) able to keep up with cars off a red light (unless they were racing me) ~~~ now they are far behind. Again ... perfect. So, overall .... for what I'm looking for ... this thing is close to heaven. It's gone from something that, before, would be screaming to keep up with traffic to a scooter that just effortlessly flows, at moderate throttle and plenty of power to spare. Hills are no longer noticed. Of course, it's still a Retro scooter and is crappy at high speeds (especially with the barn door windshield) and for long distances. I use my Goldwing for that. But the Goldwing is a at 900+ pounds, and it' getting almost zero use now a days. SuperEngine wasn't cheap, but my oh my is it great! I remember when I posted about my engine temps being between 170-200 or maybe 180-200 degrees f . I got mauled by some , lol. Some thought I was nuts . my scoot with a bad oil pump was running around 270. One even posted that near 300 was OK . on very short runs "10 miles" , my temps were down near 150-160. Its nice to know these scoots run very low oil temps. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 24, 2015 12:40:31 GMT -5
OK, so our benefactor on DansGarageTalk- Dan Martin - urged me, when he was building SuperEngine, to get am air/fuel mixture system so I could tune without the guesswork. But the system was very pricey. So here is a VERY low cost yet VERY good system anyone can add.  COST: O2 Sensor ...... $ FREE (see below) O2 Sensor Bung ..... $2.  includes shipping Welding bung to Muffler ...... ?? (cost me $10) Wiring ........ $ more or less free Gauge ....... $12.19 includes shipping TOTAL: $25.19 plus the wire Bung: www.ebay.com/itm/160855809633?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITSensor: www.ebay.com/itm/171914557669?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITHow it works: The O2 sensor sits in the muffler and reacts to the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. The output of the sensor is a voltage .... 0.2 volts is a very lean condition, 0.8 volts very rich. A perfect combustion gives about 0.45 volts. So, all you need do is read the voltage of the sensor to know exactly how your carburetor is set up. You can actually do this with a simply voltmeter ... but with a nice, fancy gauge only costing $12 it's silly to not get one that interprets the output for you and tells you "lean" or "rich" instead of raw voltage. O2 Sensor: Use an old (no good) sensor from your car; it will probably be fine. In your car the computer corrects the injector duty cycle every 10th of a second or so, using the output of the O2 sensor to know if to inject more or less fuel. Thus, the O2 sensor must react QUICKLY to changes ... and over time loses it's ability to do so and your car will not pass smog. In our scooter we do not care about this reaction speed - an O2 sensor that reacts in a 1/2 second, or even a second, is fine. So - keep your rejected car O2 sensor (or get one from a junk yard) ... as long as the heater circuit is not shot the thing will be fine. Note: do NOT use a "wideband" sensor as it's output is different and cheap gauges will not interpret the output correctly.  Wiring: There are TWO circuits in the O2 sensor: a heater and the circuit for output voltage. The heater circuit just needs to be wired to +12v and ground when the key is on. The sensor output just needs to be wired to the gauge input and ground. So, really only 3 wires: +12v (ignition); sensor-to-gauge; common ground for the heater and sensor output. The gauge similarly needs to be powered by +12v and ground, and have it's sensor input wire hooked up to the O2 sensor output voltage wire. Simple. Here is a short video of it showing air/fuel mixture as the throttle is opened and closed. It shows I have a VERRRY lean idle setup, and a slightly rich main jet setup: View My Video (who knows why TinyPic flipped the video upside down. The file below does not have this problem) View My Video |
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Post by JerryScript on Nov 24, 2015 14:48:55 GMT -5
Excellent write up on a cheap O2 sensor solution! You should copy this to a thread in the Tips & Tricks section!
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Post by dmartin95 on Nov 24, 2015 17:29:56 GMT -5
Good to hear from you Dan, great job on this build! Thanks! I have been staying busy these days building engine after engine.... You still have your 16" wheel scooter with the BN157QMJ-3 engine? I recall you couldn't find a stroker for it? Has that changed? Look what I now have access to...   |
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Post by dmartin95 on Nov 24, 2015 17:30:17 GMT -5
Well, that didn't work... LOL
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Post by JerryScript on Nov 24, 2015 17:37:49 GMT -5
Good to hear from you Dan, great job on this build! Thanks! I have been staying busy these days building engine after engine.... You still have your 16" wheel scooter with the BN157QMJ-3 engine? I recall you couldn't find a stroker for it? Has that changed? Look what I now have access to... Yummy! I'll be in contact with you about that early next year, thanks! |
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includes shipping