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Post by lain on Dec 25, 2014 14:15:08 GMT -5
Here is a good Video on how to test for NO SPARK: No Spark: 0. Killswitch not on run position, Top Black and White wire on 2 plug CDI is grounded. 1. Bad Ground from motor to frame 2. Bad Spark Plug 3. Bad Spark Plug Boot Cap 4. Bad Boot Cap not making good contact with Coil Wire 5. Bad Coil 6. Bad CDI 7. No power to CDI, Bad Stator(IF AC), If DC weak battery or bad keyswitch or no power to key switch because IF DC the Cdi gets it power when the key is turned to the on position. 8. Bad Pickup Coil Alleyoop So to find out which part is bad you need to follow the SPARK flow to the plug. I feel like we have already ruled out everything besides possible loose wire, though I inspected all the wires, except for the wires in the front fairing, or maybe a bad CDI? What does this sound like to you? |
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 25, 2014 14:18:06 GMT -5
Nobody will be able to answer your questions because as you can see there are to many things that can cause a NO SPARK.
So get your meter out and follow the VIDEO checks to find which part is bad.
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 25, 2014 14:24:12 GMT -5
Well if you tested:
1. The POWER wire going to the CDI from the stator and got 30-80Vac feeding power to the CDI then the STATOR is good.
2. The Pick up coil going to the CDI and got .5-2.5 Vac then your Pick Up coil is good.
So now you have good voltage to the CDI.
So now it is either the COIL or CDI one of the two.
Alleyoop
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Post by lain on Dec 25, 2014 14:40:37 GMT -5
Well if you tested: 1. The POWER wire going to the CDI from the stator and got 30-80Vac feeding power to the CDI then the STATOR is good. 2. The Pick up coil going to the CDI and got .5-2.5 Vac then your Pick Up coil is good. So now you have good voltage to the CDI. So now it is either the COIL or CDI one of the two. Alleyoop Maybe it is the pickup then? I read under 0.5v, like maybe 0.2? It will not spark at all without this right? However I did try another pickup that got about 1-2v and still no spark. |
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 25, 2014 14:46:14 GMT -5
Well in that pic you put up of the Pick Up coil TO ME it looks like the gap is to wide between the pickup and the Magnet on the outside of the Flywheel. You should loosen the two bolts holding it and see if you can move the PICKUP COIL down closer to the magnet, the gap should be about a charge card thickness of a gap. Alleyoop  |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2014 15:22:44 GMT -5
Well in that pic you put up of the Pick Up coil TO ME it looks like the gap is to wide between the pickup and the Magnet on the outside of the Flywheel. You should loosen the two bolts holding it and see if you can move the PICKUP COIL down closer to the magnet, the gap should be about a charge card thickness of a gap. Alleyoop That maybe it , however the actual pickup sticks down closer and its to dark to see how close it actually is. That did cross my mind but its kinda hard to tell from the pic. |
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Post by alleyoop on Dec 25, 2014 18:15:26 GMT -5
Well like I said "IF" you tested the Power to the CDI from the stator and it read 30-50+ and the Coil Pick up reads .5-.2.5v then all power needed by the CDI to activate and send voltage to the COIL is OK so you now have only TWO items left that could be bad the CDI or the COIL.
Now the CDI is one piece and if it is bad it needs to be replaced, but the COIL has several pieces that could be bad:
1. The Coil itself and in this case you need a new one.
2. The Boot Cap is not making good contact with the wire so make sure it is screwed on nice and tight onto the coil wire. Also you can cut about 1/2 inch off the coil wire and screw the Boot Cap back on so it makes good contact with the wire inside the protective sleeve.
3. The Boot Cap itself is broken inside and not making good contact with the plug and or wire in the coil wire so you can just replace the BOOT CAP.
So your almost there just a few items to check out and or replace.
Alleyoop
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Post by lain on Dec 25, 2014 18:49:00 GMT -5
Well like I said "IF" you tested the Power to the CDI from the stator and it read 30-50+ and the Coil Pick up reads .5-.2.5v then all power needed by the CDI to activate and send voltage to the COIL is OK so you now have only TWO items left that could be bad the CDI or the COIL. Now the CDI is one piece and if it is bad it needs to be replaced, but the COIL has several pieces that could be bad: 1. The Coil itself and in this case you need a new one. 2. The Boot Cap is not making good contact with the wire so make sure it is screwed on nice and tight onto the coil wire. Also you can cut about 1/2 inch off the coil wire and screw the Boot Cap back on so it makes good contact with the wire inside the protective sleeve. 3. The Boot Cap itself is broken inside and not making good contact with the plug and or wire in the coil wire so you can just replace the BOOT CAP. So your almost there just a few items to check out and or replace. Alleyoop Thanks, I am about to go out and reposition the pickup and do some reading on it while i try to check for spark. Also, when you told me the pickup should be about a charge card gap from the flywheel that really helps to visualize and check the distance, I also have the tools to measure the valve tappets so I will also check with those to see how far the metal in the pickup is from the flywheel bump. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 25, 2014 23:26:47 GMT -5
To be honest , you've done a good bit of testing and your still not exactly sure what's wrong. If I were you and if I had a few extra bucks I would buy a new cdi and give it a shot . if I'm correct you tried a different coil already with the same results. You'd be surprised how many auto shops buy new components instead of testing them with volt meters first , then they find out that wasn't the problem . its a terrible way to run a business however its done more then many think. They usually end up saying " well that part was also bad" it happened to my parents a few times . next thing you know your 1,000 bucks Into it and the car is still doing the same thing. The good thing with the scoots is that the cdi is pretty cheap and like I said before if it turns out that the cdi is ok then you have an extra one which comes in handy. It seems its narrowed down to one of two options so I would give it a shot .
It would be nice if it were just the pickup being to far from the flywheel , however I would expect the pickup to be some what loose , unless some how it loosened up , moved and then tightened back up again ? It would be nice if that's all it is but unlikely.
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Post by lain on Dec 25, 2014 23:45:31 GMT -5
So I rechecked everything over and over, then I realized the ground wire I hooked up to the coil was touching both terminals, I isolated it on the ground terminal and found the spark came back! It was sparking nice and bright blue. I then reinstalled everything and tried starting it. No luck. Over and over, no luck.
So now that we have working electric system that picks up, sends power to the coil, and sparks, I began to backtrack. Then I tried starter fluid in the air intake of the carb, no luck. Then I got a new idea, I tried the starter fluid in the intake manifold and put the carb back on and screwed it on and it started to sputter but not start, however it's a lot closer than I have been for days I think. It felt like it almost started over and over for a dozen more times then it stopped sputtering and returned to the old bad start condition. I tried about another half dozen times with no luck at it sputtering. I tried starter fluid in the intake again and it started to sputter but not start again till the starter fluid ran out again.
So it seems the problem could be the carb? The carb had fuel in it when I took it off the scooter, I drained it before bringing it inside my house. Could it be a blocked part of the carb? Maybe a piece of sand got into it? My friend had an issue where his carb was just LOADED with sand cuz his air intake fell off, he cleaned it and it ran again.
I am currently disassembling my carb, it all looks good so far according to a video I am following. I noticed 1 particle of sand so far but thats it. Cleaning it out tonight with brake cleaner, gonna let it sit overnight to dry and try it in the morning, but what do you guys think, maybe I am on the right track?
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Post by rcq92130 on Dec 26, 2014 2:52:15 GMT -5
Heck yeah you atre on the right track .... sort of. You now have a functioning electrical system. Major progress!
Just remember - when you spray starting fluid into the carb. input you need to be holding the throttle wide open. Otherwise, it just bounces off the closed butterfly inside the carb. I'm presuming you are using an ether-based starting fluid (or equivalent), in which case it's VERY volatile and evaporates very quickly. So, if you spray w/ the throttle closed a lot will just evaporate and not get into the engine. Also - if you are not getting any gas through the carb the starting fluid will not likely do more than get some sputtering.
Also- don't forget that to get gas you ALSO need the fuel pump working (i.e., good vacuum). One last thing - if the intake manifold has an air leak good luck on starting the thing, so the manifold needs to be sealed well to the head and to the carb.
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Post by lain on Dec 26, 2014 3:05:40 GMT -5
Heck yeah you atre on the right track .... sort of. You now have a functioning electrical system. Major progress! Just remember - when you spray starting fluid into the carb. input you need to be holding the throttle wide open. Otherwise, it just bounces off the closed butterfly inside the carb. I'm presuming you are using an ether-based starting fluid (or equivalent), in which case it's VERY volatile and evaporates very quickly. So, if you spray w/ the throttle closed a lot will just evaporate and not get into the engine. Also - if you are not getting any gas through the carb the starting fluid will not likely do more than get some sputtering. Also- don't forget that to get gas you ALSO need the fuel pump working (i.e., good vacuum). One last thing - if the intake manifold has an air leak good luck on starting the thing, so the manifold needs to be sealed well to the head and to the carb. I noticed when I took the carb off to clean it, the little rubber ridges had come out in some areas. I'm guessing this is bad? Any way to temporarily block it back up so I can at least test the carb when I put it back on? Also, I noticed while cleaning everything with a tiny wire that before I started to clean it the idle jet looked clogged, after cleaning it I could see light through it moreso than before. |
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Post by geh3333 on Dec 26, 2014 3:07:37 GMT -5
Back to the carb , lol . these things can drive you nuts. I'm glad you have the electrical working . it would be crazy if its a vacuum leak somewhere.
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Post by lain on Dec 26, 2014 3:15:12 GMT -5
Back to the carb , lol . these things can drive you nuts. I'm glad you have the electrical working . it would be crazy if its a vacuum leak somewhere. Yeah, but I mutilated the pickup coil wire, however it reads fine. I ended up cleaning off the end of the pickup with a wire brush and it started picking up around 0.5v ac. The end of the pickup was very dirty and looked rusted. It is also now only a business card away from the bump on the flywheel. I accidentally cut the wire though while cutting zipties and I put the wire back together by using a terminal end to crimp both wires together, then wrapped them 3 times with electrical tape. After that I checked the spark and it was consistent bright blue spark on the 3 electrode plug I still had in there. I found more dirt in the carb, only a few more specs, but it only takes 1 grain of sand to clog one important part of the carb for it to stop working am I right? |
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Post by tvnacman on Dec 26, 2014 8:31:27 GMT -5
Well , I'm glad you have gotten it sorted out . I can tell you you now know the ignition system in and out .
John
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
