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Post by dmartin95 on Nov 25, 2014 12:59:21 GMT -5
I was wanting to buy a 180cc upgrade kit but it appears to be setup for drum brakes. My Scooter is a Bintelli Havoc 150cc and I have both front and rear disk brakes. Is it possible to use my components off my disk brake engine and convert the drum in this 180cc kit to disk?  |
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Post by scooter on Nov 25, 2014 17:51:40 GMT -5
I was wanting to buy a 180cc upgrade kit but it appears to be setup for drum brakes. My Scooter is a Bintelli Havoc 150cc and I have both front and rear disk brakes. Is it possible to use my components off my disk brake engine and convert the drum in this 180cc kit to disk? </div>I have been wondering about brakes, myself. From what I can tell, the rim has the disk mounts on it and the swingarm has mounting holes for the calipers, so I don't know if there is any difference in the engine for those two setups at all. |
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 25, 2014 18:06:27 GMT -5
I believe this is correct, though am not familiar with your model:
1. The rotor attaches to the wheel. So, you would need a different rear wheel
2. The caliper (or drum) attached to the CV case. It appears you are getting a new CV case, so you should be set there.
3. Rear drum brakes are usually mechanical, while disk are usually hydraulic. If you switch to drum you would then need a new cable, bracket, brake lever, etc. If you stay with hydraulic that is not the case.
There also may be a dimensional difference in the Cv case. The disk caliper must be the correct distance from the wheel such that the rotor spins right in the middle of the caliper (which, again, is attached to the CV case). But, if the case would "attach" the caliper such that it isn't correctly positioned in regards to the rotor - major thing to fix.
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Post by ccr on Nov 26, 2014 2:00:57 GMT -5
if you are using your original crankshaft for a 180cc build, you will be building a high rpm setup. i think what you should be more worried about is finding a 4 valve cylinder head, forged piston, ceramic cylinder, forged connecting rod and have all of the crankshaft bearings replaced. you don't need to buy a new case to build a bigger engine in. just have your original case bored out. it's much simpler and cheaper. after all you dont want to buy all those parts and do a really big job of rebuilding it all and then have your connecting rod snap and your (chocolate) aluminium piston melt and hit the valves at high rpm do you? it's better to spend your money on a few high strength parts than a lot of weak ones that won't last 5 seconds of WOT without reducing their lifespan. for my 180cc build, i have decided on this: (this is for a yamaha 5SK engine, the Zuma's 10 inch cousin) firstly, cut the original case  like this then get a CNC forged crankshaft - stroke 57.5mm and a water cooled 63mm ceramic cylinder. then top that off with a 4v high rpm cylinder head  |
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Post by scooter on Nov 26, 2014 4:36:55 GMT -5
I believe this is correct, though am not familiar with your model: 1. The rotor attaches to the wheel. So, you would need a different rear wheel 2. The caliper (or drum) attached to the CV case. It appears you are getting a new CV case, so you should be set there. 3. Rear drum brakes are usually mechanical, while disk are usually hydraulic. If you switch to drum you would then need a new cable, bracket, brake lever, etc. If you stay with hydraulic that is not the case. There also may be a dimensional difference in the Cv case. The disk caliper must be the correct distance from the wheel such that the rotor spins right in the middle of the caliper (which, again, is attached to the CV case). But, if the case would "attach" the caliper such that it isn't correctly positioned in regards to the rotor - major thing to fix. I see what you mean.  On mine the caliper is on the right side.  My engine casing is probably built for a drum brake but I'm not sure. My disk brake parts are all unrelated to the engine. Just a caliper on the arm and a hydraulic line ran up to the handlebar. |
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Post by scooter on Nov 26, 2014 4:40:53 GMT -5
it's better to spend your money on a few high strength parts than a lot of weak ones that won't last 5 seconds of WOT without reducing their lifespan. I agree, CCR. That's why I have stayed away from doing a BBK. I don't want one unless I'm going to upgrade other components that were designed to work with a smaller displacement engine. |
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Post by rockynv on Nov 26, 2014 8:17:03 GMT -5
If you Havoc is like the one at the following link then it appears to have a drum brake engine converted to a right side disk brake mounted on the swing arm extension. bintelliscooters.com/product-gallery.aspx?ProductID=177Brake rotor/caliper on right hand side of scoot:  Left side showing drum brake backing plate cast into CVT:  |
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 26, 2014 10:11:40 GMT -5
I think Scooter mentioned this, but it worth seconding.
Why would you want to buy a kit with a crankcase cover when the one you have is fine (just needs to be bored out)? All of this trouble about disk brakes would be avoided if you just used the cover that is already on the bike --- and simply opened the hole up enough to accept the 63mm jug.
If I remember correctly, we have spoken about this before - the issue for you was time ..... the time for a machine shop to bore the hole. If you are going to 180cc you already have decided to separate the crankcase (the labor intensive part). So, either way (bore out your existing crankcase vs. buy a new crankcase that is pre-bored) you have to take the engine down all the way. So the machine shop turn around time is what is worrying you.
Why not simply coordinate with the machine shop, ahead of time? The actual work time to bore the case is maybe 1/2 hour. If you coordinate in advance - maybe PAY them in advance to hold a slot open for you on a specific day - surely they can turn the job around in the same day. Then you avoid all the other things you are worrying about, like for example the brakes.
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Post by xyshannen on Nov 26, 2014 12:27:13 GMT -5
ccr According to one of the best 150cc head builders in the bis, a 2 port head can be made to have much larger valve ports than the combined size of a 4 port head. It has to do with the casting needing to make the additional ports and the small size of the actual head it'self. Also with a 4 port head you're available cam options are reduced. They just don't make very many 4 valve cams for the gy6 yet. Sourcing high RPM 2 valve heads that come with 1200 RPM valve springs and ti retainers is no problem. rcq92130 That was me to whom you've spoken to about the machining of the engine case.
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Post by rcq92130 on Nov 26, 2014 12:47:59 GMT -5
Sorry, Shannen!
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Post by xyshannen on Nov 26, 2014 17:07:08 GMT -5
LOL no apologies needed brother. I wuz just jogin your memory.
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Post by dmartin95 on Nov 26, 2014 18:09:27 GMT -5
I think Scooter mentioned this, but it worth seconding. Why would you want to buy a kit with a crankcase cover when the one you have is fine (just needs to be bored out)? All of this trouble about disk brakes would be avoided if you just used the cover that is already on the bike --- and simply opened the hole up enough to accept the 63mm jug.If I remember correctly, we have spoken about this before - the issue for you was time ..... the time for a machine shop to bore the hole. If you are going to 180cc you already have decided to separate the crankcase (the labor intensive part). So, either way (bore out your existing crankcase vs. buy a new crankcase that is pre-bored) you have to take the engine down all the way. ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ This is my reply
I don't know why the stupid quote is not working correctly so I'll just respond in this quote bubble. The reason I am looking this particular 180cc kit isn't because it's "pre-bored". I'm looking at this kit because it's B-case GY6 with 57mm stud spacing. That means two things, in the event I wanted to go all the way and bore it further, I could go all the way up to to a 67mm. The other plus is because it's only at 63mm and 57mm stud spacing, there's a lot of meat left on the cylinder wall. Way more reliable than boring an A-case to 63mm at 54mm stud spacing. One other thing that should be noted, this engine kit is the one partsforscooters uses in the drag racing scooter. At $399.99, the engine kit is a really good buy IMO, if you're wanting to go with a b-case that is..... In short, it's all about the b-case!!! |
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Post by dmartin95 on Nov 26, 2014 18:14:24 GMT -5
If you Havoc is like the one at the following link then it appears to have a drum brake engine converted to a right side disk brake mounted on the swing arm extension. bintelliscooters.com/product-gallery.aspx?ProductID=177Brake rotor/caliper on right hand side of scoot: Left side showing drum brake backing plate cast into CVT: Yep, that's the one.....(or in my case, should say 2!) I made an up close video showing the Brake setup... Check out the video guys, it looks my scooter does have a drum brake motor that has already been factory converted VIA the swing arm.... So what do ya guys think, could I get a rear drum motor and use my existing parts? |
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Post by dmartin95 on Nov 26, 2014 18:21:01 GMT -5
ccr According to one of the best 150cc head builders in the bis, a 2 port head can be made to have much larger valve ports than the combined size of a 4 port head. It has to do with the casting needing to make the additional ports and the small size of the actual head it'self. Also with a 4 port head you're available cam options are reduced. They just don't make very many 4 valve cams for the gy6 yet. Sourcing high RPM 2 valve heads that come with 1200 RPM valve springs and ti retainers is no problem. Shannen, haven't heard from ya in a while, how've ya been and hows the scoot been running since the upgrades? |
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Post by ccr on Nov 26, 2014 21:51:23 GMT -5
ccr According to one of the best 150cc head builders in the bis, a 2 port head can be made to have much larger valve ports than the combined size of a 4 port head. It has to do with the casting needing to make the additional ports and the small size of the actual head it'self. Also with a 4 port head you're available cam options are reduced. They just don't make very many 4 valve cams for the gy6 yet. Sourcing high RPM 2 valve heads that come with 1200 RPM valve springs and ti retainers is no problem. rcq92130 That was me to whom you've spoken to about the machining of the engine case. it's not about the flow, it's about the size of the 2 big valves compared to the 4 small ones. the 4 valves can operate at higher rpm and higher compression ratio because there's less chance of the valve hitting the piston when the spring can't return the bigger, heavier valve in time. I'm sure over here in Taiwan we have a gy6 compatible 4 valve head, since most of the scooters here (SYM KYMCO PGO) are based on the gy6 engine |
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