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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 6, 2014 11:45:50 GMT -5
Italian stuff is absolutely fast!
It's reminiscent of my younger days... Harleys were mighty slow in spite of 1200cc... We THOUGHT Brit 650's were fast... but still, they were no hotter than a fast car. Then along came the Japanese 2-strokes! 250 and 350cc screamers that would actually do 0-60 in 4 seconds, and go on up to 120-140mph... Of course, all with brakes and suspension about right for a 100cc moped... LOL!
Not really "apples-to-apples" but still similar to the "Italian syndrome" today. Italians LOVE scooters, but they won't ride anything that won't keep up with traffic. Hmmm... I can agree with THAT mentality...
I guess it's all in the technology. My old Kymco 250cc has the old-timey workhorse 2-valve, carbureted motor. Puts out 19hp, gives around 90mpg and offers decent, but very average performance. Maybe, like an Italian 200cc.. or even a smaller Italian motor. But, I tried out a new Kymco 300cc 4-valve, fuel-injected small, flat-floor scoot; the replacement model for my old Grandvista.
Holy Katy-bar-the-door! NOW, we're talking "Italian" style performance! 40hp, 100mpg, rocket acceleration and 100mph+ top-end... Faster than our old, beloved Birit Triumph and BSA 650's... Massive disk-brakes, great suspension... all the goodies you expect on an Italian scoot, INCLUDING the light, manageable true SCOOTER platform... You're not wrestling around a big motorcycle.
As soon as you go larger than a 150, your choices multiply GREATLY! There are FAST little ones, SLOW big ones, FAST big ones, LONG big ones, SHORT big ones... Well, you get the drift. The one constant however, is that if it's Italian, it's gonna be pretty quick! I like that. Duh... like who DOESN'T?
The vast array of choices is what make SCOOTERS so incredibly appealing. From $600 to $10,000 and from "lawnmower-slow" to "crotch-rocket-fast" one can find it ALL in a scooter. And, enjoy it all without shifting gears, or using your feet... How cool is THAT?
Variety is what makes it a horse race!
Whatever you ride, ride safe!
Leo in Texas
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Post by rockynv on Oct 6, 2014 11:52:52 GMT -5
I find that folks that are used to the 150cc Honda's and GY6 equivalents just are not prepared for the higher compression multi-valve Italian bikes. They are a different animal that is for sure.
Suzuki had quite a shock when they sent some of their 250cc blocks to Aprilia and saw them turned into 150+ mph Super Bikes. The Suzuki GSXR 600 can have trouble keeping up when the road gets interesting.
Now if we could just convince the Italians to stop depriving us of the Aprilia SRV 850 cc scooters with ABS and Traction Control.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 6, 2014 12:23:22 GMT -5
Rockynv,
I was just thinking WAY back to the seventies when I was riding big bikes. Italian bikes were not all that common back then, but one of my pals got a Ducati Darmah. I think it was around 800cc (a HUGE engine for those days!). It was SO different-looking, with its forward-slanted V-twin and "exoskeleton" type frame. But... Holy mackerel, would it GO!
That was my first experience with Italian bikes. It seems much of the Ducati performance "secret" was their "Desmodromic" head... Cams both opened AND closed the valves... NO valve-springs. No matter HOW fast the engine revved, the valves HAD to open and close on-time. NO valve-float EVER.
I still remember riding that old "Mighty Duck" and being shocked that it had BOTH the torque of a Harley, and revs of a Japanese bike. What a combination!
I wonder if any of the Italian scooters use that Desmo-head setup today? It REALLY worked!
Leo in Texas
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Post by urbanmadness on Oct 6, 2014 21:22:32 GMT -5
I love scooters, but for freeway work and hi way work, I'd go big Italian. My 500cc scarabeo (2006) was happy in the fast lane, tons of storage, and very comfortable. It didn't even get blown around much on my commute. Now keep in mind, I currently ride a goldwing, so I do know comfort, although my 1100 is a bit of work to ride. Also, keep in mind, I put lots of miles on my bikes. I did over 6000 in a year on my first 150cc, then the 500cc I put 4000 miles on it in just over 4 months. I ride the goldwing just as much if not more. Currently I have 6000 miles on it, in just over 4 months. The 250 I have, gets about the best gas milage of any scooter I have and have had (75mpg) but it just can't do the freeway. It's good for short bursts of 65mph (gps verified) , before the vacuum petcock closes and it runs the float bowl out of fuel, bypass the petcock and she will run 65 all day, but that will get you run over in my neck of the woods. The 250 is a chinese scooter (liquid cooled 172mm honda clone). I don't know if the real Honda Helix and Reflex handle freeway better.
Of course, there are drawbacks to the 500cc's. In really nice shape a 2006 goes for as much as 3800 bucks. Mine was a little rough but solid, and I only paid 1500 for it (right in your budget). The 500 is also a very heavy bike and is a bit of a handfull in a parking lot. That said, with a bit of practice, you get used to it. Spend some time in a parking lot... Ok, make that lots of time in a parking lot and learn TURN YOUR HEAD in turns, keep your head looking straight ahead and UP when you stop and you will be fine. Look down when coming to a stop, and you will be catching or worse dumping the bike.
The smaller bikes, are way more forgiving with technique so learn it, even if you ride a small bike, and then when you move to that bigger bike, you will find, that you were only doing it some of the time. At least that's what happened to me. The first week with the 500 was a bit, sketchy. The first two months with the goldwing were even worse.
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 6, 2014 22:13:14 GMT -5
Just wondering, rockster, if your lil' Appy is so fab, why are you lusting for its 850cc big-BIG brother?
urban, in my last MSF class we had several GWs. And Harley land yachts. And I'm not sure who-else's big bikes.
...And then there was me on my little bitty 200cc scooter. Looked like a toy when they were all parked together. While I felt like the runt of the litter, I will say every one of those big-bike riders were watching out for me. And just plain watching me.
>'Kat
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Post by rockynv on Oct 6, 2014 22:25:34 GMT -5
You always want more. If the 100 mph 250 is this nice can you imagine how much better the 850 would be? I heard a rumor that its faster than any bike Steve McQueen ever owned. Then there come those days when you ride with someone on something like a big Goldwing and leave them behind in traffic with dark storm clouds looming behind because his bike is too heavy and cumbersome to deal with the traffic so he gets soaked (crying "It's Electric!" the whole time as steely bolts of lighting are striking around him) while you stay ahead and dry which makes you glad you still have what you got.
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New scoot!
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Post by Skunk Shampoo on Oct 7, 2014 3:38:23 GMT -5
Then there come those days when you ride with someone on something like a big Goldwing and leave them behind in traffic with dark storm clouds looming behind because his bike is too heavy and cumbersome to deal with the traffic so he gets soaked (crying "It's Electric!" the whole time as steely bolts of lighting are striking around him) while you stay ahead and dry which makes you glad you still have what you got. Wow, true story? You guys are really selling me on the Itallian bikes. As far as maxi scooters go, I think I would be doing more inner-city and parking lot riding than anything... And thinking about something small, agile, and zippy does make me feel all tingly inside. Maybe I need something more practical. I'm sure the tighter handling would be safer in an emergency. So there's no reason a smaller 200 or 250 can't make a run across the state? Sent from my TotoTV Stick using Tapatalk |
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 7, 2014 8:23:27 GMT -5
skunk, I really think mine would do pretty fine, if a braver driver was onboard. He's not as agile as the small-wheels, but he's a lot more nimble than my friend's Harley. Probably a nice compromise between power and agility.
And I absolutely canNOT complain about the engine. Considering mine's sat more than run (once sat for over a year due to a workman's comp knee issue), I've so far had zero issues. Take him in for a spring tune-up and oil change, and that's been all.
Piaggio made a 300 (350?) version which I believe is pretty much the same body as mine, with updated styling. You might take a look at one of those and see how you and it fit each other. I've seen CL used ones for not unreasonable prices.
>'Kat
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Post by mftic on Oct 7, 2014 9:27:02 GMT -5
nom-nom-nom. Just googled the Piaggio 350.  |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 7, 2014 11:23:57 GMT -5
The incentive just ended on the BV350. The were $600 off on factory incentive till the end of September.
The 350 is a box squared motor with a wet clutch that puts out as much power as many 400 and 500cc bikes yet sips fuel like a 250. The 2014 has real ABS and traction control too.
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Post by oldchopperguy on Oct 7, 2014 21:21:11 GMT -5
Wow, true story? You guys are really selling me on the Itallian bikes. As far as maxi scooters go, I think I would be doing more inner-city and parking lot riding than anything... And thinking about something small, agile, and zippy does make me feel all tingly inside. Maybe I need something more practical. I'm sure the tighter handling would be safer in an emergency. So there's no reason a smaller 200 or 250 can't make a run across the state?
Skunk Shampoo, Sounds like you and I wanted the same type of rides... I went one step further, needing a flat-floor. THAT really does about limit me to Italian, or Taiwanese... Vespa, Piaggio, Aprilia, SYM and Kymco. There may be others, but THESE brands are the most common models, coming in shorter than "Maxi" scooters, but with plenty of speed. Last night at Wal-Mart, I met a lady on a Kymco "People" 200 (really a 160cc GY6 type). She REGULARLY goes across Texas touring casinos... Been doing it for years! So... she finds it adequate to cross the state! Works for me... My guess is you'd like most any of them, from 200cc on up, on which you could get a good deal. I rode the sweet little "People 200" as a loaner, and was AMAZED at its nimble handling, AND a 65+mph speed, pulling my 235 pounds. To me, it felt MORE nimble than a typical Chinese 150, even though it had large 17" wheels that handled great at WOT. It had about  % as much speed as my water-cooled 250, but much MUCH more nimble in traffic. I would imagine the similarly-styled Italian scoots like Kat's would have the same good in-city manners, and MORE speed... I found you need to try a great number of types to find just the right one for you... AND in your price range... LOL!Ride safe, Leo |
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Post by rockynv on Oct 8, 2014 22:20:58 GMT -5
The formula is pretty simple. 15 to 16 inch wheels packed in a 54 wheel base with a 31 to 32 inch seat height, 325 lb curb weight and 20 to 30 hp. Most Italian 250/300cc scooters are pushing around 13.5 lbs per hp while the generic Chinese 250cc is pushing almost 27 to 30 lbs per hp not counting the rider as many of these scooters still weigh in at over 400 lbs.
The BV350 is 32.8 hp and weighs 390 lbs giving it a very attractive 11.9 lbs per hp. It still will get about 70 mpg which with its 3.4 gallon fuel tank will get you over 200 miles before you need to stop for fuel. It has a 61.4 inch wheel base so its not as nimble as the Sport City but still a flickable ride. Seat height is about the same as the Sport City 250.
Part of the cost of the Italian bikes is the higher grade of steel used in the frames which allows thinner walled tubing or uni-body construction to be used to reduce the curb weight of the bikes and increase load capacity at the same time. The Sport City while it weighs in at a light 325 lbs can carry over 460 lbs while the bikes made of milder steel can weigh in over a hundred lbs heavier and have only around a 330 lb capacity.
Its all in the numbers.
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% as much speed as my water-cooled 250, but much MUCH more nimble in traffic. I would imagine the similarly-styled Italian scoots like Kat's would have the same good in-city manners, and MORE speed...