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Post by ltdhpp on Apr 18, 2014 6:52:49 GMT -5
Oh so let me get this right, the belt is sitting at the EDGE of the Clutch PULLEY the Belt is DOWN on the Variator and you start the motor and by your thinking the clutch should engage and be turning your wheel..LOL Um, why yes, that's exactly what happens, after the rear pulley spins enough to throw out the clutch arms, as determined by the strength of the clutch springs. The contra spring has nothing to do with it. Yes yes, thank you for re-explaining your incorrect idea. I guess the lesson of the day is to not listen to peoples self-educated hair brained idea of how a CVT works. Show me ONE video of the belt dropping down the rear pulley before the clutch engages. ONE! just one... you can't find it, because it doesn't happen. According to YOUR explanation, the belt starts to shift down the rear pulley before the scooter even moves... yeah, that makes more sense. Lets start out halfway in 2nd gear... sure... I HIGHLY recommend people do their own research on how a CVT works instead of listening to some of the 'special' folks here. You will NEVER properly tune a CVT until you understand how it works. |
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Post by doublert on Apr 18, 2014 9:53:58 GMT -5
All I asked for was what are the best clutches to go with, NCY, OKO, Dr. Pulley, Koso, etc. I hope Dr, Pulley Clutches are good, cause their Variators abloutely Suck . I paid $100 for a Dr. Pulley Variator, now it just sits in the box as a paper weight, and no one wants to buy it!
Anyhow, I went with the NCY 3rd Gen. Clutch again, and a Decompression tube to complement my BBK.
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 18, 2014 14:27:04 GMT -5
Doublert,
Just skip all the trash talk and forget about it, some people just do not know how things work and make up things because that is what they believe or just want to start a pissing match or because they don't like the person.
But you can tell who is knowledgeable about things by how many people a person has helped with a scooter problem and actually solved it for them.
You will like the NCY clutch, my trike is heavy 350lbs and I am 180lbs and the OEM was slipping and the pads were always getting glazed I got tired of taking the glaze off so I looked for a Clutch with lot of pad material and that is when I found the NCY clutch. Since that picture I posted I have almost 6K on that clutch and it is still hanging in there.
The 250s are notorious glazing the pads but that is because most are very easy starting off and the scoots are heavy and they will shudder when starting off. What I tell them is take the glaze off and if you do not want to be doing this very often give it some rpms starting off so the pads grab good to get the dead weight moving then once the weight is moving forward you can back off the throttle.
Alleyoop
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Post by doublert on Apr 18, 2014 20:18:57 GMT -5
Doublert, Just skip all the trash talk and forget about it, some people just do not know how things work and make up things because that is what they believe or just want to start a pissing match or because they don't like the person. But you can tell who is knowledgeable about things by how many people a person has helped with a scooter problem and actually solved it for them. You will like the NCY clutch, my trike is heavy 350lbs and I am 180lbs and the OEM was slipping and the pads were always getting glazed I got tired of taking the glaze off so I looked for a Clutch with lot of pad material and that is when I found the NCY clutch. Since that picture I posted I have almost 6K on that clutch and it is still hanging in there. The 250s are notorious glazing the pads but that is because most are very easy starting off and the scoots are heavy and they will shudder when starting off. What I tell them is take the glaze off and if you do not want to be doing this very often give it some rpms starting off so the pads grab good to get the dead weight moving then once the weight is moving forward you can back off the throttle. Alleyoop Ok, Thanks Alley |
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Post by JerryScript on Apr 18, 2014 23:07:47 GMT -5
There are those that help, and those that honk. Thanks for all the help Alleyoop!
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 19, 2014 0:26:10 GMT -5
Thank You Jerry, I have noticed your getting right in there helping the folks out as well, thank you for helping.
I have written a lot of how-to and tips and tricks of the trade and I started posting them in this forum even before it was open to all.
The scoots are actually easy to fix and get running right but you have to know how every system on them work and how each part of a system works. You have Electrical, Fuel, Motor and Drive Train(CVT and Tranny). They are all the same except some parts may be a little different from scooter to scooter but the parts all do the same thing.
The hardest are the Electrical they have different CDIs, Stators, R/Rs and the wiring are different for each type. But here again they all do the same thing just more wires or less. Here the important thing is knowing what the function of each wire from the stator do. The R/R is pretty simple it converts AC from the Stator to DC for lighting, Charging your battery and most electrical on the scoot. Some lighting and accessories are run using voltage straight from your battery. R/Rs are very important because it has to keep up with a good charge to keep up with the demand of juice been drawn from the battery, if not your battery will be depleted pretty quick.
Fuel diagnose starts from the tank to the carb, and if fuel is not flowing good to the carb it is pretty easy to find out what the problem is. Then it comes down to the carb which are actually very simple and only a few things can go wrong with them. If you have a good fuel filter and Air Filter to not let any particles block air passages and or fuel passages they just need a tweak due to temp changes really. I have the same carb on mine going on 5 years and I have NEVER cleaned it once, just adjust the fuel mixture for cold and hot temps. No parts have been replaced except for bigger Pilot Jet and Main jet and I put in a Manual Enricher because I did not like the smell of gas in the hot weather when you do not need or want the extra fuel but that is it.
The motor are also very simple 1 piston 1 plug 1 crank, but here again if you know motors it will tell you what it needs and or what is wrong with the different sounds it emits.
The CVT is also very simple you have the Variator attached to the Crank with a belt going back to the Clutch Pulley which in turn turns your wheel. Then you have the gears inside the tranny, reduction and final gears all pretty straight forward.
So once you learn each system and its parts and what they do you can pinpoint the system that is causing a problem by how the Poster describes the problem. If a poster is vague you have to ask them questions so you can at least tell which system in the scoot is causing the problem. Once you determine the system you then can go down that system and find the culprit with some simply tests and or questions about that system.
Alleyoop
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Post by geh3333 on Apr 19, 2014 1:41:43 GMT -5
A stock main sspring will begin to open the pulley before a set of 1500 rpm clutch springs engage the bell because a stock main spring has a lower rpm rating . So compare it to a 1500 main spring and 1500 clutch springs the pully should begin to open about the same time the clutch engages , and so there aRe different variations of main springs and clutch springs that u can use depending on what u like best . And every variation of main springs will cause a different outcome in how your clutch springs engage . The thing is is the as the belt spins the pully the main and clutch springs are spinning at the same rate so if u have a 1500 main and 2000 clutch springs , obviously the 15000 rpms comes first and will make the main spring begins to open , now as it opens the rpms rise even higher and at 2000 rpms the clutch springs with begin to engage . The main thing to remember is your rpm gauge is measuring the rpms from the variator " crank" not the clutch pulley.
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Post by ltdhpp on Apr 19, 2014 10:08:27 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you have the spring ratings all wrong...
2K clutch springs open at 2K OVER STOCK!!!
A 2K torque spring makes the rear pully SHIFT at 2K OVER STOCK!!
all you have to do is look it up to find that out...
It seems you think that the torque spring rating has something to do with clutch engagement, it does not.
Just because ONE person but their WORN OUT stock torque spring back in and it changed the clutch engagement RPM, absolutely does not mean that a 1, 1.5, and 2K rpm torque spring will raise your engagement by those values.
It simply means that your worn out torque spring let your pulley open before engagement, that is all.
A performance GOAL is to KEEP that belt as high as you can before take-off for the best low gear possible.
I will agree that a WORN OUT torque spring could let the pulley open before engagement and change the ratio between the two pulleys, changing your observed clutch engagement, sure.
BUT, according to your idea, you think that swapping out new, stronger torque springs will let the pulley open to ANY degree before engagement is absurd.
A more proper version of your conclusion based on ONE observation that "torque springs change your clutch engagement" would be "MY clutch engagement dropped when I put my WORN OUT STOCK torque spring back in"
Projecting a conclusion to cover the far other end of a range of variables (tighter performance spring ratings) based on an observation of something from the opposite end (worn out spring) is ridiculous, so much so that its on this level:
Again, I encourage people to do their own research, instead of listening to one 'desktop mechanic' who extrapolates facts based on one thing he did himself many moons ago.
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 19, 2014 10:33:19 GMT -5
It was longer than many moons ago and before Monty Pyton  Alleyoop |
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Post by JerryScript on Apr 19, 2014 20:05:18 GMT -5
@itdhpp: The truly simple issue here is that you are a troll. You feign helping others in a not-so-subtle attempt at flaming those who are actually trying to help. The only reason you post is to start a fight, not to help anyone. If I'm wrong about your intentions, and I hope I am and that I owe you an apology, you would not berate the others who are helping. You can correct someone without calling them names and making yourself look like an underage, overbearing, self-important, pretentious snob.
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 19, 2014 21:32:48 GMT -5
NCY is a good brand . Alley thanks for the tip that their springs may only fit their clutches . I have Hoca springs in my stock clutch . Dr Pulley makes great products as I love their sliders way more than standard rollers . I have read both good and bad on DrP variators . Now their clutches cost 2 to 3 times as much as most but include a few spring sets and weights in order to fine tune it . Greg sells them cheaper than other places and you may have to look around their to find the exact one for your needs here DrP HitI am looking into getting a Stage 6 clutch since it has a lighter bell and I can change out the clutch springs without removing the bell unlike most . Here is a video of a 4T and a 2T CVT operation . Note the differences in the belt travel |
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Post by geh3333 on Apr 20, 2014 4:05:22 GMT -5
Idhpp u made my point , u said a worn out main spring could allow the pulley to open before the clutch engagement . Now I'm not sure of u know this but many do not match the main and clutch springs " as in ratings " someone who uses a stock main spring and 2000 rpm clutch springs will obviously have their pulley opening before the cutch engagement . U r completely miss reading what I'm sAying . Last season I used a 2000 main spring and 1500 clutch springs , now with that setup my clutch engaged well before the pulley began to open , this allowed me to run a fraction longer before the pulley began to open. This season I have both 2000 main and clutch springs . My clutch engages now at a higher rpm which I though I would like better because u think I should have a little more tourqe on takeoff however what's happening is my pulley is opening nearly the same time my clutch is engaging . So instead of taking off in a quicker " gear ratio " and staying at the rati. . o longer I'm now almost instantly changing to a slower takeoff ratio and the extra torque I possibly gained at takeoff by using the 2000 clutch springs obviously wasn't enough to match or surpass my previousl setup. So yes depending on the variation of main and clutch springs the main spring can make a difference in when the clutch engages. Not much more I can say so if u don't get it well I guess we should just leave it alone:.
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Post by geh3333 on Apr 20, 2014 22:53:56 GMT -5
And I also like ncy , it is one of the best . I have a question for alley , what type of
Ncy clutch are you using ? I have the blue clutch and I see yours is different . I know there at different generation clutches I just dont know if one is better then the other . I have the whole ncy assembly with the blue clutch arms the ncy bell and the adjustable sheave . Is there a better one I could be using when it comes to ncy ? I know I can google it but I would like and trust ur opinion best . Thanks
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Post by ltdhpp on Apr 21, 2014 11:54:01 GMT -5
@itdhpp: The truly simple issue here is that you are a troll. You feign helping others in a not-so-subtle attempt at flaming those who are actually trying to help. The only reason you post is to start a fight, not to help anyone. If I'm wrong about your intentions, and I hope I am and that I owe you an apology, you would not berate the others who are helping. You can correct someone without calling them names and making yourself look like an underage, overbearing, self-important, pretentious snob. ROFL... Find me ONE example where I 'started a fight' with ANYONE besides Alleyoop. My only problem is that he has claimed in several threads that 1K, 1.5K, and 2K torque spring will raise your clutch engagement by that many respective rpms, and that is simply not true. I understand now his reasoning based on his observation of putting his old worn out torque spring back in, and his is an erroneous extrapolated conclusion. Many, many people think that regurgitating information and re-posting someone else's pics makes them an expert. Sure, if you use the blanket approach to diagnostics, you succeed every now and then. And to the novice, sure, you seem like an expert. But to an expert, you seem like a desktop mechanic regurgitating information. Not claiming that I'm an expert, but I have done more to scooters and YES actually helped more people fix some things than most of the people on this forum. Just because I use big works doesn't make be pretentious A true troll only flames for the sake of flaming. I have a REASON for countering his claims in an over-enthusiastic way, because I don't like the idea of people getting the wrong impression about how things work, and like I said, understanding how something works is the first step to making it do what you want. Also like I said, I encourage people to do their own research, and I challenge you to find ONE example (besides any of alleyoops past posts under different user names from different forums he has been BANNED from) of any iteration that supports his claim about the torque springs.. As far as calling people 'special' - I calls em like I sees em. |
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Post by JerryScript on Apr 21, 2014 12:34:21 GMT -5
Whatever  |
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
