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Post by urbanmadness on Apr 19, 2013 0:44:39 GMT -5
Hey guys,
I'm working on a 250cc honda helix clone, and the problem it had/has is the starter clutch isn't working, it free wheels. So, I replaced the dang clutch, and the started the bike, it died and kicked back, and now the new clutch is freewheeling. Are the clutches weak on the 250's?
This bike has 900 miles on it... It probably pounded the springs when it kicked back and if I loosen the clutch, I can probably get them to reset, and I don't think this is the first time this bike has had starter clutch problems because, the hex head cap screws that hold the clutch to the stator are in pretty bad shape (the heads are almost stripped out and they were really tight).... is there a torque spec for these allan heads? Do they need to be tight but not crazy tight?
I'm really hating this bike right now.
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 19, 2013 1:10:34 GMT -5
The weak part in the Starter Clutch are the springs, I mean they look like they came out of a PEN.
Did you put the Washer on correctly, the washer is flat on one side that goes against the Thrust Bearing, then the NUT the BEVEL SIDE GOES OUT.
Are you sure it is the Clutch and not the IDLER GEAR that is turning freely? Is the Idler gear shaft in correctly in the sleeve on the inside of the cover to hold it straight in place.
Alleyoop
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Post by urbanmadness on Apr 19, 2013 1:35:15 GMT -5
The weak part in the Starter Clutch are the springs, I mean they look like they came out of a PEN. Did you put the Washer on correctly, the washer is flat on one side that goes against the Thrust Bearing, then the NUT the BEVEL SIDE GOES OUT. Alleyoop I don't remember a thrust washer. This is a 250 (honda helix clone) with the clutch bolted to the stator bell. I bought the entire clutch assembly. Like I said, someone has been in this thing, and I did put it back together exactly like it came apart but that doesn't mean some parts were missing from the previous hack/mechanic. And this was suppose to be a quick CV clutch job.... ughhh... I changed the CV clutch (glazed really bad), and intake manifold, cleaned the carb and replaced the jets and all the vac lines. Just trying to get it to run right... then it took out a starter clutch, just as I was setting the idle speed. almost forgot, replaced the font wheel bearings too (they were horrible)... all this on a 900 mile bike. It sat for a few months and before my buddy bought it. It's been a real basket case. It's a Znen roar, and it's been the biggest piece of crap I've ever run across. It's pretty but that's about all I can say about it. I hope I can salvage the new starter clutch. What would cause one to kick back that hard, besides valve timing or ignition timing? Ignition timing should be right on, so maybe we have a valve timing problem? I can't see that on a newer bike that hasn't been pulled apart that deep, but, again, I don't know what the previous owner had done to it and I can't see the factory off on valve timing, but I guess it could happen. Would a carb problem cause kick back? They all kick back from time to time, but this was pretty epic. |
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 19, 2013 1:56:18 GMT -5
Kickbacks are caused by two things Timing to advanced or to high of a compression. Mine used to KICKBACK all the time DEPENDING if the motor happened to stop just before coming up on the compression stroke. So I would hit the start button and it would kick back. If it was not on the compression stroke then the crank would get an extra revolution before the compression stroke and it would not kickback it would push through the compression stroke. On mine it was caused by the PERFORMANCE ADVANCED TIMING CDIs I used. I tried all of my CDIs and when I put on the OEM CDI it would never kickback. So what I did is google for a CDI that would only advance after the rpms started to go up around 3K and for starting it was not advanced. That is what I currently have on it and I never get any more kickbacks.
Does your CDI look OEM black or is it a colored one or different than your basic OEM ones?
Alleyoop
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Post by urbanmadness on Apr 19, 2013 8:24:40 GMT -5
[replyingto=alleyoop]alleyoop[/replyingto]It's not kicking back when it's starting, it's kicking back when it dies... Maybe kickback is the wrong term for this. The CDI is so buried in this thing that I haven't even seen it. I will take a look saturday and see if it's a stock one.
I'm gonna take it apart again, on saturday....
I guess I'll screw down that idle speed screw before starting it next time, then back it down when it's running.
I gotta say, I'm not real impressed with 250's. At least not so far. I love the 150s tho.
You were talking about the thrust washer... do the 250's have this on the starter clutch?
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 19, 2013 9:33:04 GMT -5
What oil are you using ? Did you try the boric acid treatment ? I read where those who had a wet starter clutch it would slip and not start after using BA with full synthetic oil . I did with Castrol Synblend 10w40 and had no issues
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Post by urbanmadness on Apr 19, 2013 14:53:51 GMT -5
Right now it has Castrol synthetic blend in it. 10w40. The starter clutch has three starts on it. Gonna yank it apart again tomorrow. I just hate draining the oil again. it's like 10 bucks a quart. What is the boric acid treatment?
I am actually hoping that this scooter is brilliant when it's done... and it probably will be, but right now, it's a PITA... and the biggest piece of crap I've worked on.
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Post by 4950cycle on Apr 21, 2013 18:10:11 GMT -5
The Honda Helix is ugly as . He must be talking about a Honda Reflex clone .
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Post by 4950cycle on Apr 21, 2013 18:29:17 GMT -5
Did you try a sharp rap or two with a hammer on the edge of the starter clutch to see if it would free it ? I replaced mine in a 257cc Linhia powered Honda Reflex clone. The new one was $80 part only. As soon as I took the old one out it (the old starter clutch) started working correctly and never screwed up since. Its almost like it was in a temporary bind and I jumped the gun replacing it. I wish I would have tried knocking the heck out of it with a bull pin through the timing hole. Instead I ripped it all apart to put a new one in.
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Post by JR on Apr 21, 2013 19:30:52 GMT -5
The Honda Helix is ugly as . He must be talking about a Honda Reflex clone . You may not like the Helix but it has its fans. |
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Post by hank on Apr 21, 2013 19:38:01 GMT -5
The Honda Helix is ugly as . He must be talking about a Honda Reflex clone . You may not like the Helix but it has its fans. Hi Doug I agree as im one of them ,I simply love the look of them   [UNSET] by inuyasha50, on Flickr Take care and ride safely dear friend Yours Hank |
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Post by urbanmadness on Apr 21, 2013 20:03:41 GMT -5
The engine is called a helix clone. I too don't like the looks of the helix but I'd own one as they are an awesome scooter.
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Post by alleyoop on Apr 21, 2013 20:21:32 GMT -5
It's not kicking back when it's starting, it's kicking back when it dies... Maybe kickback is the wrong term for this. The CDI is so buried in this thing that I haven't even seen it. I will take a look saturday and see if it's a stock one. I'm gonna take it apart again, on saturday.... I guess I'll screw down that idle speed screw before starting it next time, then back it down when it's running. I gotta say, I'm not real impressed with 250's. At least not so far. I love the 150s tho. You were talking about the thrust washer... do the 250's have this on the starter clutch? Oh then your starter clutch is fine, what it is doing on yours is what they call "dieseling" after shut off. Couple of things to try: 1. Lower the Idle it could be to high. Should be idleing around 1800-2000 2. The plug is to hot may need a colder plug. 3. You can try a different grade of fuel as well(higher octane) to slow the burn. Alleyoop |
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Post by JR on Apr 22, 2013 10:52:37 GMT -5
It has been a while since I had a problem with dieseling, it seems that running too hot, as in coolant temperature, and timing advance being off can also cause it.
If it has a low octane fuel in it try adding a booster or some premium fuel.
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Post by urbanmadness on Apr 22, 2013 13:35:30 GMT -5
It's not kicking back when it's starting, it's kicking back when it dies... Maybe kickback is the wrong term for this. The CDI is so buried in this thing that I haven't even seen it. I will take a look saturday and see if it's a stock one. I'm gonna take it apart again, on saturday.... I guess I'll screw down that idle speed screw before starting it next time, then back it down when it's running. I gotta say, I'm not real impressed with 250's. At least not so far. I love the 150s tho. You were talking about the thrust washer... do the 250's have this on the starter clutch? Oh then your starter clutch is fine, what it is doing on yours is what they call "dieseling" after shut off. Couple of things to try: 1. Lower the Idle it could be to high. Should be idleing around 1800-2000 2. The plug is to hot may need a colder plug. 3. You can try a different grade of fuel as well(higher octane) to slow the burn. Alleyoop Yeah, diesling.... and it hammered on the starter clutch. After it diesled, the clutch just would freewheel. I got it to work finially, rocking the engine back and forth from the variator. And its doing this when it's cold... don't know yet when it's up to operating temp. You know, I have an idea I'm gonna try tonight. I'm wondering if there is something up with the fuel pump. The bike is acting like it's got a huge vacumme leak. I've seen a few of these pumps have internal vacuume leaks. I bought a new one to replace a weak pump on my 150 on time, and the new one had a vacuume leak so bad, the bike wouln't even idle. |
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..BAD TO THE BONE..
