|
|
No Way
by: dollartwentyfive - Mar 26, 2017 19:20:18 GMT -5
Post by dollartwentyfive on Mar 26, 2017 19:20:18 GMT -5
i don't know man, front wheel ABS has no doubt saved a lot of skin, agony, and crying.
especially newbs, but they are the ones that need to be aware of the dangers in the first place.
i hate to break with authority, but front wheel ABS is an almost must have (my opinion, of course)
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: rockynv - Mar 26, 2017 22:15:08 GMT -5
Post by rockynv on Mar 26, 2017 22:15:08 GMT -5
Unqualified riders that have no business being on a motorbike are the ones that are at the greatest risk which again brings to light the absolute need for all States to uniformly require a Basic Riders Course similar to what MSF offers as a requirement to get a Motorcycle\Scooter License. Front wheel ABS is not going to prevent you from flipping the bike if you apply the front brake too heavilly in a hard turn and in some (possibly many) situations may make it worse.
A new rider still needs to be trained to ride safely regardless of ABS and realize that ABS does not shield one from the end results of makeing bad decisions.
Without the training you won't know that if you hit sand and your rear wheel skids out what will happen if the bike gets going sideways and then hits clean pavement again or what to do to better your chances to ride it out. With full ABS you will not be able to respond approproatly to that along with a number of other situations.
What I am getting here is that having ABS is probably causing you to override your capabilities giving you a false sence of security.
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: w650 - Mar 27, 2017 16:44:10 GMT -5
Post by w650 on Mar 27, 2017 16:44:10 GMT -5
I would agree on the training but for one thing. My adult stepson took the BRC and passed with flying colors. A couple of weeks later he dumped my late wife's Rebel by grabbing the front brake too hard on a dirt shoulder at no miles per hour?
I believe there's no substitute for experience. Training exposes someone to potential issues but BRC doesn't throw you into potential trouble.
Sadly experience comes from facing danger. Also many accidents happen within six months of owning a new bike no matter how experienced you are according to the original Hurt report. Most important is keeping your head on the road.
|
|
|
|
Post by wheelbender6 on Mar 27, 2017 18:31:42 GMT -5
"I believe there's no substitute for experience."
Agree 100%. The BRC does not teach you to ride. It teaches you to ride more safely.
I wish every new rider was able to get "off road" riding experience before hitting the road.
The tank slappers, high sides and endos hurt a lot less on dirt.
You can make a lot of mistakes on the dirt and still live to tell about it.
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: oldchopperguy - Mar 27, 2017 21:26:14 GMT -5
mftic likes this
Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 27, 2017 21:26:14 GMT -5
It seems like there is a LOT of agreement/disagreement on the aspects of braking these things. I dunno, I learned to ride at 13 on a pal's 1950's Harley Dresser with suicide clutch and hand-shift... mechanical "Fred Flintstone" brakes... sticky worm-drive throttle and spark controls on both grips. Probably the WORST setup since the leather belt-drive bikes of the teens.
It only took me riding a block to KNOW "this thing can kill me"... LOL! And it took a mile to figure out that it basically wouldn't stop in less than a football field... And it took about 5 miles on the expressway to learn that I was in LOVE with bikes... Whizzer, Cushman, Harley... The ALL sucked where braking (or ANY safety aspect was concerned...) but my pals and me understood that and made allowances.
Chainsaws are inherently potentially dangerous, so you make allowances. Firearms can be potentially dangerous, so you make allowances... Dating girls can be potentially dangerous, but I don't think there are any "allowances" there... LOLOLOL!
I realize times are different today... I started driving cars at 10, bikes at 13 and didn't get a drivers' license until 16. All the local police new we were underage, but so long as we didn't act like fools, they turned a blind eye. Our parents were glad we kids could drive so they didn't have to cart us around... There were no insurance requirements... The authorities figured if mom and dad trusted us with the family car, we couldn't be all that bad drivers... I honestly cannot recall ANY 10 to 15-year-old buddy ever having an accident or getting a ticket. But then, we all had guns and nobody ever shot his pal for his sneakers either... Times are different, but vehicles ARE a WHOLE lot safer too.
Back in my "day" there wasn't any safety training available. You just climbed on and learned as you went. I'm all for training, AND modern brakes... But if even a new rider with no experience is careful, he/she should be OK. My first Chinese scooter had that funky, phoney "ABS" front brake, but it was OK... My "new" Kymco has "decent" but not great brakes by today's standards, and they are fine. I just made sure to find some slippery stuff, gravel, loose dirt, leaves, etc. and CAREFULLY see what happened with various applications of both brakes, individually and together. In short order, I knew what my scooter would, and would not do.
My favorite "test" was locking both wheels on dry road... The old mouse slid straight and true... Then, I tried it on the oily center of the lane at a stoplight... Of course, she started to whip around and get full-goose-Bozo... So let off both brakes, tap the rear and she snaps back straight again like she should... Sure, I got a little "squirrely" and I wobbled a little, did a little foot-dance and had to think fast to keep from dropping the thing, but after all, it IS a scooter, NOT a 1,000-pound cruiser... And muscle-memory comes pretty fast, even at 70 years old.
I don't think any modern brake setup is truly dangerous... Some are better than others, sure... but all are light-years ahead of the stone-age rides of my youth. Training is GREAT, but common sense is MANDATORY. Both together are a good combination.
It's just not rocket science... My opinion only of course... LOL!
Ride safe!
Leo
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: SylvreKat - Mar 27, 2017 22:02:07 GMT -5
Post by SylvreKat on Mar 27, 2017 22:02:07 GMT -5
I would agree on the training but for one thing. My adult stepson took the BRC and passed with flying colors. A couple of weeks later he dumped my late wife's Rebel by grabbing the front brake too hard on a dirt shoulder at no miles per hour? I believe there's no substitute for experience. Training exposes someone to potential issues but BRC doesn't throw you into potential trouble. Sadly experience comes from facing danger. Also many accidents happen within six months of owning a new bike no matter how experienced you are according to the original Hurt report. Most important is keeping your head on the road. I dunno. I was driving on an unfamiliar road which suddenly no warning after a short hill turned into gravel and dirt. I used both brakes hard on the remaining asphalt, then remembering my MSF class released the front brake once that ran out and I was on the gravel. I had managed to dump enough speed that I stopped rear-brake only within a few more feet. Turned around and duck-walked back to the asphalt and resumed my drive. If I hadn't taken the MSF, I wouldn't have known to release the front brake. With the MSF class and even with little experience, I managed to keep from losing control (of both bike and myself, ha) Now, where ABS would fit into that scenario, I don't know. And doesn't matter much to me since Peej doesn't have any. And newish car which does have ABS wouldn't care about gravel.  >'Kat |
|
|
|
No Way
by: wheelbender6 - Mar 27, 2017 22:14:32 GMT -5
Post by wheelbender6 on Mar 27, 2017 22:14:32 GMT -5
"But then, we all had guns and nobody ever shot his pal for his sneakers either..."
When I was in high school, many of the cars in the student parking lot had guns in the trunk,
because they went hunting before school.
The faculty didn't care because we shot animals; not people.
_I guess my point is, I'm OK with anti-lock brakes or linked brakes as long as they are not mandatory.
There are riders that don't need them, and they shouldn't be required to pay for them.
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: w650 - Mar 28, 2017 6:50:16 GMT -5
Post by w650 on Mar 28, 2017 6:50:16 GMT -5
Kawasaki, for one, offers bikes in ABS and non-ABS versions. I can get behind that.
Maybe I'm different than most in that I used a bike to death commuting and saw dumb things "Age Out". I'm not against ABS, I'm against complicated means to employ it. Years ago when Bosch came out with ABS for German cars they were NASA class units and expensive. GM employed a system similar in function to the Chinese ABS unit at much lower cost and complication. What they use now is unknown to me but the point is that ABS with sensors and computer controls is a headache I don't want to deal with on a bike.
How many scooters or bikes even reach 100,000 miles? People dump them when the cost to fix them reaches a cost to vehicle value they can't justify. It's why most of the 1970s and 80s Japanese bikes were scrapped. Depreciation ran their value down to less than the cost of a tuneup.
My central point here is that if I have to rely on something daily I need it to last. If I have to replace it every three years because the Whiz-Bang Tech on board is going to fail, I'm not interested.
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: rockynv - Mar 28, 2017 12:17:00 GMT -5
Post by rockynv on Mar 28, 2017 12:17:00 GMT -5
I would agree on the training but for one thing. My adult stepson took the BRC and passed with flying colors. A couple of weeks later he dumped my late wife's Rebel by grabbing the front brake too hard on a dirt shoulder at no miles per hour? I believe there's no substitute for experience. Training exposes someone to potential issues but BRC doesn't throw you into potential trouble. Sadly experience comes from facing danger. Also many accidents happen within six months of owning a new bike no matter how experienced you are according to the original Hurt report. Most important is keeping your head on the road. ABS would not have prevented that either. A lot depends on the instructors at MSF. Where I took mine they were really on the ball and taught the full coarse without shortcutting anything. Sand patches, jumping/hopping small logs, emergency swerve and stop, stop over uneven ground with a dip, holding a line in a tight curve at 30+ mph, short stops, etc. Course started at 20 mph and ended at around 35 to 40 mph with about 1/5 the class not making it past 20 mph. They need to hold the MSF instuctors more accountable to uniformly following the course and grading methods for passing students too. |
|
|
|
No Way
by: urbanmadness - Mar 28, 2017 14:18:26 GMT -5
Post by urbanmadness on Mar 28, 2017 14:18:26 GMT -5
I have only had one bike that had non-linked, or the check valve on the front brakes. My 150 had the check valve on the front, the 250 had the check valve on the front, The Aprillia 500 had linked AND Real ABS. My 82 goldwing had nothing, just brakes, not linked, no ABS. My current ride, a 1989 goldwing, has linked brakes. I really don't notice that big of a difference other then the 1989 goldwing really, really stops well you would never know it was a 950lbs bike. The '82, well it will stop, but no where as well as the '89. It weighs only 700 lbs. The accord,er I mean 1989 goldwing probably has the most predictable brakes of all of them, including the Aprillia. The Little 150 had great front brakes, but horrid rear brakes. the 250? Unremarkable but adequate. The Aprillia... Adequate, I really didn't like the feel. The handle would go "limp" once it stopped... it was a bit off putting. I say this only to say that on each of these bikes, you used the brakes differently. The 150 for example, you would use very little rear brake. The big ol' '89 wing, you use the rear brake not only to stop, but as a stabilization tool. You want to ride slower than a walk? Ride that rear brake and slip the clutch... don't worry, not gonna hurt it... the clutch is Made to be slipped, just don't get carried away. AND KEEP YOUR HEAD UP....  |
|
|
|
No Way
by: oldchopperguy - Mar 28, 2017 16:50:50 GMT -5
Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 28, 2017 16:50:50 GMT -5
Yeah, what he said...  Yup! |
|
|
|
No Way
by: w650 - Mar 29, 2017 6:49:17 GMT -5
Post by w650 on Mar 29, 2017 6:49:17 GMT -5
A lot depends on the instructors at MSF. Where I took mine they were really on the ball and taught the full coarse without shortcutting anything. Sand patches, jumping/hopping small logs, emergency swerve and stop, stop over uneven ground with a dip, holding a line in a tight curve at 30+ mph, short stops, etc. Course started at 20 mph and ended at around 35 to 40 mph with about 1/5 the class not making it past 20 mph. They need to hold the MSF instuctors more accountable to uniformly following the course and grading methods for passing students too.
I don't know where you took that course but I never saw a BRC like that at any of the sites in either New York or New Jersey. They were all in paved ranges with cones and paint marking. I know they have a dirt riding course but that I've never seen. Even the Experienced Rider Course takes place in the same place and it was just slightly more difficult than the BRC. I would have enjoyed the challenge of your course. My dirt riding background would have made it a fun day.
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: rockynv - Mar 29, 2017 11:57:19 GMT -5
Post by rockynv on Mar 29, 2017 11:57:19 GMT -5
Old parking lot next to a prison. The instructors were former MotoCross Racers and shoveled sand in places and tore down fence rails and put them on one section of the course. Had a long way around with a slalom to make it more interesting since you had to a full turn around the course swerving around all the cones to get back to the starting line.
The instructors can make it memorable and fun or a boaring drudge that you will soon forget. I feel I really got my monies worth.
|
|
|
|
No Way
by: oldchopperguy - Mar 30, 2017 18:34:25 GMT -5
Post by oldchopperguy on Mar 30, 2017 18:34:25 GMT -5
Old parking lot next to a prison. The instructors were former MotoCross Racers and shoveled sand in places and tore down fence rails and put them on one section of the course. Had a long way around with a slalom to make it more interesting since you had to a full turn around the course swerving around all the cones to get back to the starting line. The instructors can make it memorable and fun or a boaring drudge that you will soon forget. I feel I really got my monies worth.
An old parking lot next to a prison? How cool...In Texas, I can just see that scenario. The DOT could give the prisoners a rifle with one-round to shoot at the scooteristas taking the course... If they hit one, they'd get out of jail early... LOLOLOL!  Ok, OK... Only KIDDING... But not all that far-fetched... The "Easy Rider syndrome" is alive and well in the Lone Star State... After all, Texas IS the place of origin for the legal defense: "The dude jus' needed killin' "... |
|
|
|
No Way
by: Jarlaxle - Apr 2, 2017 7:08:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Jarlaxle on Apr 2, 2017 7:08:31 GMT -5
well see, that's the thing about all of this. when i first started riding my 250, my poor 10 speed braking habits carried over to the scoot, and i braked that way. and i braked hard, squeezing both levers equally. there is no question that the ABS on my scoot saved me from at least 1 dump. it wasn't until after i seen my friends leg did i realize a front wheel lockup caused it. only after that did i fully realize the story about braking technique. ABS on motorcycles or not, i can see the merits of both. Highlights why all States should make passing the MSF Basic riders course a requirement for getting a Motorcycle Endorsement. Panic stop braking should have been part of the licensing exam. Yeah, it is great...especially if you get a kickback from it! |
|
